JC / Railbird

OK, but who then are Railbird’s Top Ten?

Posted by Ernie on June 24, 2008 @ 3:12 pm

For summer fun, could you create a list of nominees for x best of the past x years and make a poll for fan voting? Sigh, and if it could have links to watch races…..

Posted by gorevidalfan on June 24, 2008 @ 3:20 pm

Just thinking about John White and his list that goes as deep as 74 horses puts me to sleep … I guess I’d probably pass out sometime during his 30 minute monologue on Native Diver.

Posted by Michael on June 24, 2008 @ 4:26 pm

Foals of 1976 and beyond:
1. Spectacular Bid
2. Ghostzapper

Posted by EJXD2 on June 24, 2008 @ 5:00 pm

Agree with Ed.
A few lengths back to whomever for third—but I punched ALL on my tri ticket. And perhaps used Invasor and Mineshaft a bit separately, for exotic value.

Posted by Ernie on June 24, 2008 @ 6:02 pm

Hey, gorevidalfan, that is a good idea for summer fun. Give me a few days and a poll (with as many videos as I can get from YouTube) will be up, along with the Railbird top 10 (that’s for you, Ernie). Ed, we may disagree about where Ghostzapper lands (I’ve seen your Derby List debates), but let me think on that …

Posted by Jessica on June 24, 2008 @ 8:07 pm

If he wins the Arc and the Japan Cup he should go down as one the top 5 of all time.

Posted by Ryan on June 25, 2008 @ 12:06 am

That’s a bold assertion, Ryan. You’re saying that if Curlin wins those two races (although, the Japan Cup seems unlikely, I don’t think there’s been much talk of running), he would go right after Secretariat, Man O’War, Kelso, and Citation? That’s leapfrogging a lot of horses who have done a lot more.

Posted by Jessica on June 25, 2008 @ 10:13 am

I’m with you Jessica when it comes to placing him into a greatest list until his career is over. IF (and thats a big word right now because he hasn’t even worked on turf, or at least it is for me) he could win the Arc, it would make a good argument for inclusion. I agree currently there are many horses out there that have done more but if the Arc was successful, it would be a feat never accomplished previously by a winner of a triple crown race (or at least not to my knowledge). That to me is pretty impressive, considering the Arc is the only race with more prestige than the Derby when it comes to black-type, so Ryan may be on to something but I don’t know about as placing him as high as 5, top 25 maybe.

Posted by Katie aka TripCrown73 on June 25, 2008 @ 10:37 am

Sorry but you can’t put Curlin in the top 5 of anything. I think he is a super talented horse and the best around today and he also figures to have an incredible 4-year-old season but in fairness to all it’s just not all about rattling off wins. You also have to compare the competition he has faced. To date the best 2 horses he has faced being Street Sense and Rags to Riches, have beat him. So while he is super talented he isn’t near the top.
And let’s not forget about Spectacular Bid’s 4-year-old season where he went 9 for 9 and won under 132 pounds three times and 130 pounds three times.

Posted by NickBorg on June 25, 2008 @ 10:49 am

For me, when it comes to “ranking” horses, I have a minimum standard that a horse needs to have accomplished before considering him/her on any all-time list, but once that threshold is met I consider the horse fair game for ranking.
It’s kind of a hybrid approach between the European style (taking a horse’s best race) and American ideology (in which everyone expects a horse to carry 140 pounds and win the Triple Crown or at least be trained by Shug before it can be considered great).
Ghostzapper didn’t run much but when he did it was breathtaking and awe inspiring. As a Horse of the Year, I feel comfortable ranking him ahead of everyone but Bid in the past 30 years.
Lost in the Fog was incredible, but he didn’t do enough for me to rank him among the top anything over any longer period of time. That wasn’t his fault, obviously, but he would be an example of a horse I would want to have seen more from before using a superlative.
If Curlin were to win the Arc and Japan Cup, then I would feel comfortable calling his campaign the best international campaign since All Along, who in 1983 defeated males in four Grade/Group 1 races in three countries.

Posted by EJXD2 on June 25, 2008 @ 10:57 am

Hard to take any talk of Curlin in the top ten list of anything seriosuly at this point. 8 months ago you’d be hard pressed to put him on top as horse of the year. This year, he hasn’t faced much. So basically, his top ten inclusion is off two races – JCGC and BC. A match race and a mud show.
Talk to me in another 8 months. I give credit to the connections for aggressively spotting the horse, though.

Posted by o_crunk on June 25, 2008 @ 11:35 am

Curlin also beat Street Sense multiple times and Rags was finished after her by a nose win and carried less weight and was well rested.
Comparing the racing of today to yesteryear is impossible. All of his racing buddies are at stud, as is the way now. Curlin, in the 21st century,is a better horse simply because he has balls and is still running, not counting the fact that he wins a lot and is going to try the turf.
(Since when is a 6 million dollar race not much?)
((If a horse was not rattling off wins how do you measure a winner?))

Posted by libby on June 25, 2008 @ 12:31 pm

6 million is ‘much’, but take a look at the PP’s from dubai … there is not much there. I’d say he faced a better field @ CD a couple weeks ago and that was ‘only’ a million dollar race.

Posted by o_crunk on June 25, 2008 @ 1:00 pm

Let’s all wait and see what happens. Curlin still needs to accomplish the feat of winning the Arc. I agree with Jessica and Katie. Right now it’s just a big “if”. And I’m not sure about rating him with Man O’War, Secretariat and Citation. But saying other horses have done more is not entirely accurate. I can’t think of any other horse that has won a Triple Crown race, the Breeder’s Cup Classic, and the Dubai World Cup. Granted these races are fairly recent additions to the sport. But if you look at it that way, and then add the Arc to the list, he becomes one of a kind, and would be in a class by himself. I think that could justify a top-5 ranking

Posted by Mike Macchia on June 25, 2008 @ 1:06 pm

Hard Spun beat Curlin multiple times … and the knock on Hard Spun was he couldn’t get distance, shouldn’t have been pointed to the Classic. Could be wrong but I believe Hard Spun is the only horse to beat Curlin more than once. Always liked that Hard Spun …

Posted by o_crunk on June 25, 2008 @ 1:16 pm

Hard Spun beat Street Sense multiple times, like the EverReady Bunny … he kept on goin’ … great horse …

Posted by libby on June 25, 2008 @ 3:14 pm

A horse can rattle off wins all he wants but if he runs against nothing he can’t be ruled to be a truly great horse.
On the other hand, if this said horse travels all around the country, running in the biggest-most important races and still rattles off wins than he certainly has achieved some level of greatness.
It’s not the horse’s fault that the competition is weak or doesn’t show up. So in that case he could still obtain some form of greatness by rattling off wins throughout the country and also by doing it while carrying more weight. 130 pounds to start! (Spectacular Bid, Forego, etc …)
The owners of Curlin are very brave and should be given a lot of credit for attempting The Arc. I mean Curlin right now seems unbeatable at a route anywhere from 1 1/16 to 1 1/4 on dirt. So why try a new surface? Why risk anything further than you need to? This is certainly another way of obtaining greatness. In fact if you remember Secretariat also won on grass and even had course records on grass. So it is do-able.
And not to cause an argument but Curlin certainly showed brilliance by coming back to win the Preakness. However the best horses he faced last year in his 3-year-old season did beat him. Rags to Riches ran an incredible race in the Belmont. Curlin showed a lot of guts but did get beat by a Filly going 1 1/2 miles. And Street Sense beat him in the Derby going 1 1/4 miles. But if you think about it it’s not really a blemish on Curlin’s record because these were considered to be very good horses he lost to and those races turned into battles. Even the way Curlin won the Preakness was an incredible battle.
And in retrospect we might be waiting another hundred years before we see another Filly win The Belmont Stakes! And yes, Hard Spun was a very gutsy horse. He was improving at year’s end and had to be considered one of the better early speed horses to race in some time.

Posted by NickBorg on June 25, 2008 @ 3:47 pm

When did Hard Spun beat Curlin “multiple times”?
Hard Spun finished ahead of Curlin in the Derby and Haskell, but Curlin actually WON two races in which Hard Spun finished behind him.
Last year’s crop was great, and Curlin was clearly the best of the bunch.
Bottom line is Hard Spun never won a race that Curlin was in, but Curlin won two such races, and that tips the scales clearly in Curlin’s favor.

Posted by EJXD2 on June 25, 2008 @ 5:16 pm

EJXD2 — You are right, you’re right, I meant in front of Curlin. I do love a fan of Curlin, thanks for the correction!

Posted by libby on June 25, 2008 @ 8:33 pm