JC / Railbird

I can’t wait to bet against Big Brown in his start. I don’t see him beating Commentator or Curlin.

Posted by Matt on August 4, 2008 @ 7:34 pm

Is he really sore? Maybe, but remember this, after Belmont most people said BB would never run again, and he did. I don’t know where he will run next, but I feel he will run somewhere.

Posted by Robert on August 4, 2008 @ 10:48 pm

Poor horse, let him leave as a winner and get away from Dudu.

Posted by libby on August 5, 2008 @ 10:19 am

He ran like I expected him to run – got to the top of the stretch and backed off, expecting to be forcibly stopped by the jockey, then ran on when he realized he wasn’t supposed to stop. If he’s as perceptive as he seems, he could have just been trying to repeat what he was instructed to do the last time. That’s what my horse would have done, being suddenly wary of someone hauling on his mouth through the stretch.

Posted by Kerry on August 5, 2008 @ 12:00 pm

My lord, I have just about had it with the Big Brown jabber. Say what you will about the humans in his sphere, the horse is all class. Let’s recap: He won the Florida Derby in his third start, after six months away, in a laugher from a post that never — EVER — produces winners. I think he won by 12. Then he wins the greatest race in the world, the Kentucky Derby, effortlessly, in his fourth start. He builds on that with a devastating Preakness, only to do that Belmont thing he did, which, when coupled with his often-called “unsavory” connections, made him the most reviled horse in the world. So what does he do next? EXACTLY what is asked of him — he wins the $1 million Haskell Invitational. He had a difficult start — ambushed by a surprising Joe Bravo — and then briefly looked to be fading on the far turn, the critical juncture of the race. Instead, he responded to the whip, drifted to the center of the track and attacked with a fury to get up less than 10 strides from the wire. The race produced a number that would CRUSH not only every 3-year-old route horse out there, but most of the older horses as well. I think Well Armed got a 103 in his last outing, and that runner is a prime BC Classic candidate. Yes, the 3-year-old crop is lousy, but that’s not Big Brown’s fault. Upon leaving Monmouth Park, I overheard people in the parking lot saying that the Haskell was Big Brown’s last race, and I just shook my head. Everyone wants to talk Big Brown down, but I found him very impressive this weekend. He took one of the most important races for 3-year-olds, with its huge jackpot, and did it when he looked like he wasn’t going to. If that had been Evening Attire out there, people would have called it the greatest thing they’d ever seen in their lives.

Posted by John S. on August 5, 2008 @ 4:25 pm

To John S.
I too may be in the minority, but for goodness sakes, the Horse performs with all the Circus that surrounds him. At the top of the stretch I agree he was probably waiting for the Jock to pull him up again. He showed a lot of courage catching a Horse that was running the race of his life. He didn’t quit. I would love to see another Jockey on Big Brown. Now that he won it won’t happen, but I just don’t think Big Brown is crazy about Desormeaux. It happens, Horses just get along differantly with who is on him. He’s a very good Horse and I think that there is still something bothering him—– Maybe he drifts because it’s just a habit, he’s tired, or just maybe something is still bothering him—race

Posted by race on August 6, 2008 @ 10:53 am

Oh dear God – do people really know so little about horses and how they think that they believe one bad race where he was pulled up would inbed in Big Brown’s psyche and make him voluntarily “pull up” in the Haskell?
Come on, people – I can’t even get my kids to learn something after one time – and you are giving a 3-year-old horse credit for that kind of congnitive ability and recall? Makes me giggle…
Big Brown is unsound, period – and he has tailed off considerably in the second half of the season. He is not the horse he was coming into the Derby. Whether its the feet, the lack of drugs in his body now as opposed to the spring or just that he has mentally cracked a bit under the campaign is anyone’s guess. I’m betting feet. When Dutrow pulled an audible and blew him out prior to the HAskell on turf – that was a pretty obvious “tell.” The way he ran and struggled and bore out so badly while closing in slow time on a shortening up long shot is another. He is hurting.
When they announced next day they were looking for grass? That sealed the deal – they want to be as easy on his bad feet as possible.
If he runs again – it will be in the easiest spots that they can find. If they run in the Classic – it will only be if they think the field is weak enough that he will stand out. They are banking on Curlin not showing.
If all those variables don’t fall into place – look for a phantom fracture, ligament or “soreness in the bone – a la Smarty Jones” to surface and prompt a retirement.
Another loss would cook him as a high end sire – and Three Chimneys has too much invested to allow that to happen – guaranteed.

Posted by Cgriff on August 6, 2008 @ 12:59 pm

Horses remember unpleasant experiences. For perceptive horses, all it takes is *one* bad trailer trip, *one* bad crash through a jump. They’re by no means rocket scientists, but they deserve a little more credit. And I’m not even saying that he’s not unsound or hurting, or that I know the answer. But a horse is listening and learning each time you’re on their back, and I’ve seen many pick up on something the first time. Obviously your experiences of working with horses on a daily basis have been different! :)

Posted by Kerry on August 6, 2008 @ 2:06 pm

Kerry – that’s a fair counterpoint – especially about the “trailer trip” or “bad fence” – but I don’t hold Desormeaux’s pulling up of the horse in that “traumatic event” category. What he did was not the kind of thing that would imbed itself into a horse’s brain – even Big Brown’s. Now – if Desormeaux had hauled off and whipped him repeatedly in the head while sawing his mouth bloody – that would be the level of experience that I believe might have stuck. But just pulling him to a stop? Nuh-uh. He’s just not the horse he was 2 months ago. It’s just that simple.
And 25 years raising and showing Quarter Horses in AQHA and other sanctioned venues and a great instructor/trainer have taught me a few things about working with horses. So I wasn’t talking out my….hat on the topic, just so you know.
Good discussion!

Posted by Cgriff on August 6, 2008 @ 3:48 pm

Good dialogue here.
Big Brown did not come home slow in the Haskell. It was under 13 seconds. He may be unsound, which means he deserves more credit, not less. If he is still adjusting to a loss of Winstrol, he may come back very strong next outing. He may not get along with Desormeaux, but he sure looked responsive at the end on Sunday to me. There are many variables here, obviously, and it’s intriguing, but so many people want to bury him. I think knowing definitively what went wrong in the Belmont would change the entire complexion of the conversation around this horse, but it’s just not happening, so we deal with what we’ve got. I wasn’t a BB fan during the TC, and I thought the Belmont was a disgrace, but the Haskell has made me start to kind of like him — J.S.

Posted by John S. on August 6, 2008 @ 5:08 pm

John S is in the minority in the writing – both professional and the blogs – on the Haskell. I could have sworn BB came home in 13 and change – which is not bad – but not serious race horse time. If I read that wrong? Well……I’m still fairly certain that he is not the horse he was – and may never have been.
The press coverage and his very easy wins over very average fields lent an air of greatness to him that might not ever have been there. I read an article that pointed out the fact that speed figures don’t lie – and his have been consistent and only a bit above average throughout. It’s not like he threw in Curlin or Ghostzapper numbers at any point this year. 100 – 109 is the best he could muster. It may simply be that he is remaining the same and the late bloomers are catching up to him. But every behind the scene backside conversation I’ve heard has indicated bad feet with a retirement prior to Breeders Cup still very much in the offing.
And I agree – the Belmont run for BB was a disgrace – but not for the horse. Desormeaux bears complete responsibility for that debacle of pulling up in the stretch. He simply didn’t want people to see the horse being beaten badly – so better to chuck it. It was positively shameful – and a blot on the horse’s reputation that should never have been placed there.
Time will tell – but the fact that Pompa announced BB will not run in the Woodward (facing Curlin) or the Jockey Club Gold Cup speaks volumes. He can’t turn around in 4 weeks? Can’t turn around in 8 weeks? He has to have a special Grade 1 created for him on the turf? COME ON!
Something is rotten in the IEAH camp – and it smells like the stench of ducking competition to preserve a breeding value. They may have already syndicated Big Brown – but what they charge a pop will largely be set based on what he does the rest of this year. Another loss would be deadly.

Posted by Cgriff on August 6, 2008 @ 7:20 pm

I’ve also had a sort of strange turn around on this whole BB thing. I saw him in the paddock at MTH on Saturday and he didn’t look good to me. And by ‘not good’ I mean that I have seen the seen top horses up close and if you didn’t know he was BB you might have lost him in the paddock among the 5k claimers in the 1st race that afternoon.
That said – there is something that is being overlooked here in a big way…Coal Play is a serious horse for course.
Go two back to his first start at MTH and you’ll see what happens when this horse gets loose on the lead and courageous. I saw it live that day and immediately thought Haskell and still think it is the second best two turn dirt performance of the meet behind Indy Wind, IMHO. Go take a look at that race and you’ll see what I mean. His failed second try at MTH at odds on is forgiven because of the trip he received.
Also – Brad Thomas had this horse at 8-1 on the morning, so he also thought him live despite the unassuming resume.
So anyway, BB ran this horse down and that’s all well and good…but you couldn’t find the rest of this field on a milk carton. They were NOWHERE. So my inclination is to give BB the benefit of the doubt and stamp this a top performance even with the obvious injury this horse is running against.
Saw Dutrow hanging out among the grandstanders, checking out races Saturday afternoon and remembered he’s a human too. He’s becoming a sympathetic figure in my view as it’s kind of a ‘him against the world’ situation.
And this is where I’ve turned on this – I actually would be interested to hear what Dutrow (and Dutrow ALONE) would do with this horse next. Believe it or not, I would trust him over anyone else associated with this horse right now. It takes a lot for me to say that.

Posted by o_crunk on August 6, 2008 @ 9:02 pm

I agree with o_crunk — Dutrow is the guy to trust with the horse. As for Big Brown’s speed figures, true, his Beyer’s were not stratospheric, but don’t forget the Ragozin boys said Big Brown’s Derby was the fastest OF ALL TIMES!!!!!!
And as for ducking competition: Ask any trainer and they will tell you — go for the most money in the easiest spot every time you can.

Posted by John S. on August 7, 2008 @ 10:17 am